Listen here: This month’s bonus episode is with the elusive Guillaume Velde, who researches the wrecking coasts of England and joins the show to chat about Pagham-on-Sea’s museum collections, its smuggling and wrecking history, fairy lights and folklore, and the real trouble with fossils (among other things!) https://rss.com/podcasts/eldritchgirl/171769/
Introduction
CMR: Hello, and welcome to the next episode of Eldritch Girl, which is a bonus episode, and today we have the very elusive Guillaume Velde with us who I’ve managed to track down. He’s a very difficult man to get hold off. But Guillaume Velde has done a guest post for me on the blog before and talking about the Pagham-on-Sea Museum and Containment Facility and he’s going to tell us a little bit about his research interests, and as lockdown lifts he’s going to go back to town and carry on with some of his research – so Guillaume, welcome to the show.
GV: Thank you for having me.
CMR: It’s really lovely to actually get to meet you at last and so yeah would you like to introduce yourself a little bit and maybe say a little bit about the museum and your research interests.
GV: Well, I am a wandering researcher, I suppose you could say. I have a day job but it mostly doesn’t matter where I am when I do it, so I am free to pursue my research interests, to a great extent, and these take me to Pagham-on-Sea fairly often. My major research interests are really in the histories and the folklore of coastal areas, especially around shipwrecks and wrecking; both the actual history and the stories that people have spun based on that history.
CMR: Very interesting. I mean we should point out, as well, this is Pagham-on-Sea East Sussex not the Pagham, West Sussex and, yes, so. Okay, and can you tell us anything about what you’re researching at the moment in terms of shipwrecks around that area of coast.
Smuggling and Wrecking
GV: Pagham-on-Sea provides some unique challenges. It has a very interesting history. Firstly, there have been the normal run of people just not looking where they were going. Obviously there are rocks off shore and if you look at a map of the south coast of England there’s just wrecks all over the place, you know it’s not particularly uncommon to have wrecking hotspots.
Pagham is not noted for the quantity of its wrecks, but it has some interesting special things about the ways that people tell stories about them and also due to some quirk of history, some objects from a couple of very important shipwrecks have ended up in the museum here. So it is a good place to be for what I am currently researching.
So Pagham had a bit of a wrecking problem as many areas on south coast did where people would attempt to lure in ships by means of lights onto the shore to wreck them and steal the cargo.
CMR: Yeah.
GV: It usually involved also disposing of the unfortunate crew. You can certainly see, when the story is told by various people, you can see evidence of unwarranted alcoholic bonuses, shall we say, that were either salvaged in a fairly heavy double quotes or simply smuggled on via the beach there.
CMR: Yes, sorry I was gonna say I knew that the town does have or had a big smuggling history. There’s a there’s a smugglers’ tunnel isn’t there, that runs quite a way out, and it’s meant to be underneath or come out of Fairwood House, which is quite away from the coast actually.
GV: Yes, it is, I think one of the reasons why there was such a big smuggling presence is simply that in Pagham-on-Sea, a lot of the people who were at least organizing the smuggling were actually very well… often very well organized. So this is not what you see in some places, which is sort of very freelance, I suppose, these days, you’d call it small business.
I mean I grew up in a coastal area, and there was very, very, very much even now, there was a great deal of what you might call individual level smuggling. In Pagham, though, at its heyday, this was being actively funded by people who were quite well off and quite important, as far as we can see, and this is probably why the the main smugglers’ tunnel leads all way to Fairwood House.
I have no wish to besmirch the memories of individual families here, but as clues go, that is not a subtle one.
CMR: Yeah one of them was, I think I can’t remember what they’re all called Peter or John or something. But one of the Sauvants was the magistrate as well, which helped at that time. [It was Thomas Sauvant.]
GV: Yes, there were reasons why the excise were not notably successful in this area.
And the fact that all of their liaisons in what passed for local law enforcement were all quite cheerfully drinking smuggled brandy probably accounts for this to a certain extent. There is an interesting social history to be written about whether the people who ended up running the show actually planned to end up running the show and ran it like a business, or whether they ended up in this position simply by consuming smuggled products and having to take responsibility and diverting attention more and more and more. And it’s entirely possible that the Sauvants in question – because there were multiple generations of this, it was a family business – just kind of preferred not to think about it too much and in fact had simply ended up in that position by making a lot of decisions which seemed pragmatic and sensible at the time, and after 20 years or so, had actually put them in an extremely questionable legal position.
CMR: I mean there were into all sorts of things, though, that family. There’s lots of links to the occult and all sorts of interesting rumors… and yeah, I mean they were just a very questionable bunch really.
GV: I think they were really bad at saying ‘no’. It seems to be a family trait that I think they went into the occult when it was fashionable to be into the occult, and they were into smuggling when that was a way to make quite a lot of money. But again, I don’t get the feeling that there was any organization there, I mean if you look at the noble families or semi-noble families, they are not up there among the great organizers or the great schemers.
CMR: No. Yeah, that’s fair.
GV: They just… You know that they have spent several centuries just narrowly escaping being in serious trouble that that’s the entirety of their story.
CMR: Yeah, yeah.
GV: There were no great high points, there were no great low points, they just kind of… just about escaped from penury, with every other generation or so.
CMR: Yeah, I mean arguably until the very last one, and that was like… their death duties had gone through the roof, and Sir Jack was very ill and… yeah, I think I’d agree with that. I mean that wasn’t until sort of the mid- to late-20th century anyway.
GV: Yes, and I mean an awful lot of families in a similar position, whose wealth was not easily accessible necessarily, as in, bound up in land with those legal obligations attached to it, found themselves in similar positions.
CMR: Yeah that’s true, and in terms of the wrecking and the – that history, what would you say is some of the most interesting things to have come out of your research so far?
Fairy Lights (Farisee Lights) & Social Networks
GV: I don’t think it was uncommon for wreckers to cultivate ghost stories, smugglers too, very notably, and I mean this shows up in quite a lot of fiction about smuggling, too, the idea that you put about the story that so-and-so’s ghost is wandering angrily on the shore at night for some ill-specified reason, and that they will visit terrible vengeance, possibly involving a spike, upon anyone who interferes with their nocturnal meanderings. Because if you can scare off the kind of people who are likely to believe in ghosts then you’ve made an appreciable reduction in the number of people who are likely to interrupt you. If you can cultivate a kind of a supernatural air, then people are just going to avoid the place at night, anyway, which is again to your benefit if this is somebody you are doing something extremely legally questionable.
In Pagham-on-Sea there is a slight complication here, of course, which is that there are lots of fairy lights and there are lights moving at night, which nobody has ever admitted to. These days, when smuggling along the coast is rather rarer and much less well funded – obviously, there is smuggling that goes on across the channel, but very little of it seems to end up in Pagham-on-Sea, you know this isn’t a it’s not a particular hotspot of that kind of thing.
CMR: No.
GV: You still get a lot of lights along the coast that really don’t seem to have a purpose and that wander at will, and, of course, if you are… especially a sailing ship coming up past Pagham-on-Sea, whether the diverting light is being waved in the air by a wrecker or by a fairy is really slightly academic. The rocks are still quite spiky, and I mean there are lots – I’m not, I do not wish to to besmirch anyone’s good name, but there are lots of stories about kleptomaniac fairies so the result may in fact be precisely the same. And in fact the result is probably the same for people from the town as well, because if you interrupt a fairy on the cliff top, or if you interrupt interrupt a wrecker the difference in what happens is largely going to be the precise manner in which you die. Because neither of them are notably friendly to people who wander up in the middle of the night asking bloody stupid questions.
CMR: Yeah, that… yeah, yes, that’s very, very true.
GV: So you have this interesting thing where you can’t actually tell what bit is organic story, you know, the supernatural like the fairy lights, what bit is kind of mythological posturing put about by the wreckers themselves, and which bits are just made up.
Of course there, there are grave difficulties in thinking and talking too much about things like fairy lights, because you have to be very, very careful about what is story and what isn’t anyway, but, the presence of actual unexplained lights does make taking to bits the stories about wreckers significantly more interesting.
CMR: Yeah, I’m trying to think of a good example that I heard, and I know about… I mean, Seamus McVey is the obvious famous one there’s lots of urban legends and local myths about him anyway because he’s the one that got buried alive in the smugglers’ tunnel and again that’s like Fairwood House related. And, and you know, obviously, you know Harold Bishop’s book?
GV: Yes.
CMR: Yeah I mean that’s it so there hasn’t been I don’t think there’s been an updated version since like 1987 but, so that’s the book obviously on the history of Fairwood House for any listeners that don’t know, and it’s published with Basingstoke University Press. I’ve quoted from that actually in my Folklore of Pagham-on-Sea Volume one and, but not the Seamus McVey section, and I’m going to kind of think about doing that in volume two so maybe actually Guillaume, we could kind of reconvene for volume 2 of the folklore and I’ll get you on some fairy lights and wreckers.
GV: I think there is a very interesting situation here where Bishop and other people have really concentrated on McVey as a person and as an individual, whereas the the social dynamics of the wrecking and smuggling are more interesting because of course it’s not just one person, and it’s not just one character doing it, and there’s all these social networks up and down the coast. And, as I said, in Pagham that becomes especially interesting when you consider things like the fairy lights and what else might be trying to prey on shipping. There are stories to be told about the interactions of smugglers and wreckers, with other things that are trying to prey on shipping. And I do not think some of those stories, [which] exist in oral history, and there are some trial records that have some more than usually odd stuff in, [which are in] the archives, and I don’t think those have been visited enough. I think that there’s a very interesting study to be written in future on that.
CMR: Yeah I was also thinking about Daniel Pierce’s journals. He was a local farmer contemporary again with McVey so that’s the 1780s I think. No, sorry, 1740s. Way out. They’re in East Sussex Record Office, I think, at the moment, but I think when people look at Pierce’s journals, I think you’re right, like I’ve had a brief look at them for for certain bits and pieces, but I think a lot of it is kind of neglected because Pierce writes in a very… Even though it’s a personal journal, a lot of what he’s writing, if he was writing kind of blatantly, would be very incriminating if those journals were found. And it… kind of reading between the lines you get the sense of this network of farmers and like gentry, as in like gentry farmers, in that in that whole county, who are all recipients of some sort of ill-gotten gains but nobody’s really talking about it in that sense.
And Pierce of course knew McVey, and we know that, because – not to, not focus too much on McVey as a person, as you say, and but there’s a story where McVey bet his pistols on a cock fight at the King’s Head, and he lost them to Daniel Pierce. And so those pistols are now in the museum aren’t they as part of the smuggling collection. And that’s often dismissed or glossed as like a random encounter but nobody’s really asking well you know who who else was at these cockfights? And we know that events like cockfighting and dog baiting and gambling and that … that was all going on at the time, and there are those social networks of people that that overlap and map them to, you know, not just who was doing these sorts of activities, but who they were meeting, the deals they were making, all of that kind of stuff in terms of social networks.
GV: I mean as in most towns, it would be very, very interesting to… instead of having all these official records have a short but reliable list of who was going for quiet drinks with whom, in this connection certainly. But yes, I think it’s not just that, it is that other things are likely to be preying on shipping, and fairy lights are possibly a good indicator of that, and I think there are there are stories, not so much as smugglers’ run-ins with other smugglers or smugglers’ run-ins with wreckers, or either of their run-ins with their paymasters, I suppose you could say, but their run ins with other things that they didn’t really understand.
And there are some fascinating things which… which sound almost like sea monsters, but are probably not actually sea monsters, described in, for example, some of the investigations into some other acts and, of course, those investigations were perhaps a little perfunctory given some of the financial interests involved. But there was a lot of stuff in there you wouldn’t necessarily make up.
The Lighthouse
CMR: Right, yeah. I think a lot of it has been kind of dismissed as well because, like there’s nothing in the lighthouse logs, is that right, but the lighthouse keepers… there is a lighthouse and the lighthouse keepers have never recorded seeing anything unusual.
GV: The lighthouse was built rather later, though, and I think is kind of important to remember that most wrecking activity had wound down rather before the lighthouse was built, and most of the wreckers had moved on to – or wrecking families, had moved onto smuggling by then, presumably because it was lower risk. So the lighthouse was not actually built to defend against wreckers and the lighthouse was built as part of the wide-ranging program to build lighthouses in areas where maritime safety had been a problem, and especially in areas where navigation could be confusing.
So the building of the lighthouse… it’s, it’s really important to see in the national scale, because there was a big push to build lighthouses in the 19th century, where they were sensible to [do so]. The threat that the lighthouse is defending against is much more the geography than the inhabitants of Pagham at that time.
Now the lighthouse is interesting because, as you say, the lighthouse logs, the logs of the lighthouse keepers, do not contain any of the scandal or social tension that you find in some other lighthouses where lighthouse keepers have perhaps gone a little bit strange. Now that’s partly because it’s less isolated than lot of other lighthouses but at the same time if you look at the folklore around say the fairy lights and weird happenings especially around the coast, I mean Pagham-on-Sea is not short of weird happenings, but especially the weird happenings that happened around the coast, there is this kind of black spot around the lighthouse and it is remarkable that in a town notable for the richness of its ghost stories and strange folklore and things going bump in the night, as it were, nothing at all has been said about the lighthouse, even though it is a lonely place comparatively by the edge of the sea and lighthouses attract that kind of story.
In fact, as far as I can see the lighthouse never really saved anyone from wrecking and never really caused you know, was never involved in anything. People sat there for ages until it was automated. And it just sat there you know, nothing interesting has happened in that lighthouse which in Pagham-on-Sea makes it an intensely interesting place and I know a number of people who are trying to work out what is going on there, whether it is the lighthouse itself or the rock it is built on.
It is built on bare rock, you will note, there is no soil on that little headland at all.
CMR: Yeah, no there isn’t at all.
GV: It’s built straight onto bare rock, and essentially there was some speculation that this was the cause of it, but it’s kind of hard to say.
CMR: Yeah, yeah it’s… yeah that lighthouse is a bit of a black spot, it’s really interesting that you say that, and it’s the question about the rock itself as well, because I mean we know a lot about the soil of Pagham-on-Sea. Well, maybe people don’t who are listening, and so just to… just to clarify, I don’t know how to put this delicately… the soil around Pagham-on-Sea is what we describe as hyper fertile. So the local saying is, don’t plant what you don’t want to grow, or don’t put in the ground what you don’t want to grow, which means anything of any organic material whatsoever. And, especially at a particular time of year. And so, that also means like your if you do have to dispose the body don’t bury it. That’s the official advice.
GV: Yes, there was that kind of fascinating heyday of agricultural experimentation, and in Pagham-on-Sea that just went in a slightly different direction with slightly different results, than it did in much of the rest of the country.
CMR: [laughs] Yeah…
GV: This of course presents opportunities and problems. No one is ever short of fruit in Pagham-on-Sea.
CMR: This is very true. We are very blessed down there. Moving into that because we have to: fossils. Is what I’m going to say to you.
GV: Yeah.
Fossils [Are Official Secrets]
CMR: There is a reason the museum is called the Museum and Containment Facility.
GV: Well, yes, I think a certain amount of this is overreaction, but. So the problem here is that if you’re in a situation where everything you put in the ground that was once organic grows, you have a real problem where it comes to fossils. And for a long time nobody thought about this, and this is really, really interesting but… everyone knew that you didn’t bury people. Everyone knew that when you planted seeds you got incredibly fast luxurious growth. Everyone knew about the interesting approaches to agricultural science that got us there and they might not talk about it, but it was generally a known thing, um. But nobody until really comparatively recently thought about fossils which, of course, are underground and were once organic.
The problem here really began to come with the installation of civic infrastructure, and specifically sewers and pipework. I mean let’s just say when when a giant stone ammonite crashes unexpectedly through the wall of your sewer, you find yourself with problems on a number of levels, not just sanitary ones.
CMR: [laughs] I shouldn’t laugh, that was very expensive, that was.
GV: It was extremely expensive and it was absolutely terrifying and no one really made the connection. When, because of course it’s been growing and it had been moving and because, obviously, when, as it grows it’s being pushed through the soil following paths of less density, you know it’s growing in a direction and i’m one of these things came through the wall of the sewer and people were like what on earth is going on here um, and so they patched it up.
CMR: The sewer, not the ammonite.
GV: The sewer, not the ammonite, the ammonite was in great condition. We’ve still got it in the museum.
CMR: Yeah I’ve seen it, it’s fucking massive.
GV: It’s enormously huge. I mean, then a little while later, a couple of years later, another one did the same thing. And people run around waving their hands in the air going, you know, what’s going on here what’s wrong, etc, etc, and there was much conspiracy theory and occultism going on around this. And then the third one occurred. And you know, once is a coincidence, twice suggest malevolence, but, on the third time, you have to admit there’s probably a design flaw somewhere.
This was the event that firstly got people to understand that they needed stronger sewers, and got people to take seriously that they had a whole new set of hazards to deal with when installing infrastructure in general, not just sewers. I mean a suitably large trilobite will quite happily just cut through a phone cable like it’s nothing you know. But also these were the events that got people thinking about what was going on here, you know, and the design of the containment facility itself was partly a response to a threat to infrastructure and people think is this terribly you know, occult malevolent thing, which is because they’re still thinking in a two sewer interruption world rather than a three sewer interruption world.
CMR: Right, yeah.
GV: Because people want there to be this great eldritch threat to the world, where what they just actually are is, is large bits of stone that will screw up your infrastructure. Anyway, yes. So what they did was, they began mapping out the contours in the ground, what some people call ley lines. And they did this with very precisely balanced dowsing rods. Let’s not forget that, especially the late 19th century, was really a heyday of precision instrument manufacturing. So when I say precision dowsing rods, I mean it. These were very, very carefully designed surveying instruments: eccentric perhaps, but very carefully thought through. And what they did was they made sure the sewers ran with the contours with the ley lines, rather than across them, because of course the fossils were trying to move along the contours too. So if you had your sewers running parallel to where the fossils were trying to migrate, for want of a better word, it was massively less likely that they would be collided with.
And this kind of surveying still actually has to be done before major projects in case anything has shifted underground or in case anything is still moving. We think we’ve got all the really big ones now, but we wouldn’t necessarily know until it actually hit something. So it’s good practice to install things where possible where they won’t get hit by migrating fossils.
So, Pagham-on-Sea, for fans of infrastructure projects out there, is the only place you’re likely to see a telecoms engineer wandering around in a hi-vis jacket with a dowsing rod and a GPS receiver attached to it making careful notes about where the dowsing rod dips and does not dip. And, most of the telecoms companies, especially, are kind of resigned to this now, but some still kick up a fuss, but fortunately, the Council insists because really.
CMR: Yeah, it really has to be done, or it’s such an expensive way to run your life.
GV: It does amuse me that people, as I said, like to think about the containment facility as this kind of eldritch occult thing, whereas actually it is to make sure the phones and the sewers keep working. There’s a kind of amusing juxtaposition there and amusing contrast.
CMR: I mean the fossils don’t move when they’re out of the soil, we should point out.
GV: Yes, exactly. That’s why the containment facility is designed the way it is. So the fossil exhibitions of course are presented quite conventionally because, in that context you know they are in a display case, they are off the ground. It’s quite easy to stop them accidentally getting thrown out or being a problem. In the actual storage places the the fossil storage is very carefully kept above ground on plastic legs and the point is that the fossil should never be able to touch the ground.
Now this is, in my view an absurd overreaction. As are the extremely… as are the very serious security restrictions around them, because these things do not move fast when they’re in the ground. And even if one escaped and touch the ground, you would probably have a good four or five days before it had submerged itself, you know these things do not move fast. So a certain amount of this is overreaction, in my view, but it makes for an interesting exhibit.
Other Museum Collections
CMR: Yeah, it does. I’m really looking forward to when the museum can reopen after lockdown and we can all go back in, have a look. We’re opening up again April time, but are you going to be going down there soon?
GV: Yes, I’ll be going down as soon as reasonably possible, there are some objects in the museum I wish to look at, except for the one that’s gone missing, which I will have to look at the place where it isn’t, which is very annoying but they keep losing it. There’s – there’s a table they keep losing. It loses itself, they say. I don’t necessarily understand what they’re going on about there, but every time anyone – it always – every time anyone catalogues wherever it is, it isn’t there next time they look and it’s hard because they usually quite careful with the inventory management and their collections management down there. So it’s a little bit odd that something the size of a table would continually go missing, but when they find it again, maybe they’ll be able to keep track of it for long enough for me to go and see it.
CMR: Is that from a wreck?
GV: Yes, yes. There’s a collection of rather odd items from a Romano-British shipwreck which actually happened at the entrance to the Solent. It’s not quite clear how the objects ended up in Pagham-on-Sea museum but I’m glad they have, because it means I can consult them and examine them on my trips down, without having to make another trip.
CMR: Yeah that’s good. What’s your favourite collection that’s not… that we haven’t mentioned? Which one are you really looking forward just to browse around as opposed to study?
GV: Probably the the Arbitus collection.
CMR: Oh, yes, I love that one.
GV: …which has so many stories in it, on so many levels. The Arbutus collection is the multi-century collection of women’s neckwear for those who don’t know, by a vampire called Jeremy Arbitus. He gave the collection to the museum when the museum opened. Not all the parts of the collection are in particularly good condition, I mean each one as is well known, each one has a single bite mark in it. Arbitus was a vampire and it comes with the territory. Some of them are also bit stained and this this kind of – there’s a regrettable prejudice, which is even more regrettably backed up in fact, that vampires can be very messy eaters. And one or two of the parts of the Arbitus collection really do show that. But the social history, the person of Jeremy Arbitus, the fashion…
Jeremy Arbitus was a prolific vampire and very, very keen on consent, which makes him a very interesting and good counterpoint to the prejudice against vampires they don’t that they don’t really care about humans at all. And I believe he is being used by the vampire community in initiatives to underline the importance of consent and good human vampire relations more recently, but that’s more your area than mine, I’m not…
CMR: Yes. I mean obviously it helps that… I say ‘helps’ that he’s no longer with us, but yeah he’s very much the poster boy for historical…
GV: …responsible vampirism.
CMR: Yes. It’s used to say this is very much not a ‘new thing’, there is precedent for it.
GV: And part of vampiric culture. Which the vampires have never been in any doubt of, but the humans need reminding of on a distressingly regular basis.
CMR: Yes, and also arguably some of the newer vampires on the scene. And it depends how… there’s this whole conversation about… yeah I mean we’re getting into into some very complicated undead discourse at this point so.
GV: And I’m not intending to…
CMR: No no. Let’s leave that alone.
GV: It is certainly interesting that he can be, and is used, as a stick to beat humans with about vampires, shall we say, about vampires being able to not just be the rather one dimensional predatory monsters have so many unfortunate stories.
CMR: Yes. I mean, vampires do benefit from some very good media PR at the moment. Where are you going to be staying then? Because if you’re going to go down, I mean I can’t imagine a lot of places are open, when do you normally stay?
The King’s Head
GV: I often stay at the King’s Head.
CMR: Oh. Yeah. That’s nice. I like it in there.
GV: It isn’t prone to particularly dramatic hauntings. It does a decent pie and chips. And some of the bands, they are they’re quite nice and they finish early enough for me to go to bed, so I mean it’s it’s great, it’s nice, and it’s much nicer than any of the chain hotels or all that kind of thing.
CMR: Yeah, I mean I think you’ve just got the TravelInn, and that’s a bit… yeah. Anyway, I I really liked the King’s Head, though. I like the duel story they’ve got on the wall in the snug, you know, Swales versus Eales. I love that. Do you want me to tell that one?
GV: Go on, you tell that one.
CMR: Ok so this is in 1716. There was an ongoing feud between the landlord of the King’s Head, which was Thomas Swales at the time, and the landlord of the Exchange, which is a couple of just kind of like… You sort of go out of the King’s Head and turn left and the Exchange is like, on the end of the road, but yeah you know where I mean. And that was for the affections of the recently widowed Maria Whitten.
And so they fought a duel in what’s now the beer garden of the King’s Head, which was at the time, where they did you, cockfighting and stuff, like we mentioned before, and Swales chose pistols and he shot Eales in the shoulder. And Eales shots Swales in the thigh, I think, and they both kind of got patched up and survived the resulting infections and only to find out that Widow Whitten had run off with Captain Nathaniel Black of the Royal Navy so. Just generally devastating for everyone and they’ve got that story on the wall in the snug, which is lovely, along with a little painting of Swales do you know the one I mean, I mean like the little portrait. Because doesn’t he haunt the pub?
GV: Yes, he does haunt the pub or so they say. I’ve never seen him. But they certainly have a reputation of being haunted by him, and they do say on a dark night as is traditional you know, on a dark night when everything is still, you can hear him stomping about outside complaining about the price of lamb.
CMR: [laughs] Yeah I’ve heard that story. I haven’t heard him… I haven’t heard him either, but um yeah that’s what they… that’s what they say.
GV: He swears something terrible they say.
CMR: The problem is, it’s Pagham-on-Sea, how would you tell that that was a ghost? It could be just anyone!
GV: Yes, I mean, I’ve said some choice things in that beer garden myself so.
CMR: Oh, well, I think that’s all we’ve got time for unfortunately, but maybe I’ll see you down there when your next about because I want to go back down as well, but um yeah it was absolutely lovely to have you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing about your research and stuff and we will reconvene at a later date, hopefully.
GV: Thank you for having me.
